jethrien | Sexist Christmas?

So the Washington Post ran a story about a dad who tries to run Christmas one year without his wife's help, and does stereotypical things like giving lame gifts and dodging social obligations and trying to not do Christmas cards.

And my first thought was to be pissed. I don't like sexist humor in general, whether it's making women or men look stupid. I don't like the stereotype of fathers being useless and hopeless and clueless. My first thought was "If my Chuckro was to take over Christmas, he'd do it perfectly. He's not a moron. He knows how long you have to ship things to reach distant relatives, he values homemade cookies over storebought ones, he is capable of getting all the Christmas cards out the door on time." But then the second thought was - but I still do all of it. The baking, the Christmas cards, the decorating, etc. Because I care, and he really doesn't. I wrap most of his presents to people other than me. If it were up to him, we wouldn't do most of this stuff. We wouldn't have a tree until there were kids, and it would then be a fake tree and we'd leave all the lights on it. We might have some cookies, but it wouldn't be six kinds, with festive colored sugar. We certainly wouldn't bother with Christmas cards.

My third thought was that if for some reason he took over Christmas - because I was seriously injured or because he had an editor that insisted or some other disaster - he'd probably still do it all "right", because he knows it matters to me even if it doesn't matter to him. So my initial thought is justified. I don't think he'd ever do any of the fuss of his own free will, but if he agreed to take it on, I maintain that he'd do it flawlessly. So my initial outrage is totally justified, I think. Men are not stupid, and there's nothing here they can't do, they're just socially sanctioned to be incompetent and so are. Mine isn't generally incompetent even when society says he can be (see re: laundry and cooking), which is why he's awesome and I love him.

But that still leads to the question - how much of the Christmas atmosphere is a female thing? Would the majority of men care if three-quarters of it disappeared? If we just threw up a tree with a handful of ornaments, gave presents to our immediate family, ate some storebought cookies, and skipped the hoopla? Or do guys also like the cards and extended family networking and overly ambitious baking and cleaning and decorating, but are socialized not to bother because women will throw up their hands and do it for them?

So - how many guys here actually care about elaborate Christmas celebrations? How many women do, for that matter? (I realize that this is somewhat biased in that most of the people reading this are young enough not to have necessarily established many Christmas traditions independent of their families, yet.)

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I'm torn a little here.

I despise most christmas cards, but ones that have had a lot of effort put into the presentation are very special to me.

I don't care so much about the tree, but I like the decorating the house part, and the Christmas feast is very dear to me.

But overall, I'd rather spend time with family on Christmas regardless of decoration or tradition than have the trappings but miss the company.

Also, your cut-code is broken and LJ has disabled the link. :P

I think I fixed it. You must have been looking at it in the approximately 5 minutes that it was broken. Sorry!

I think I'm going under the assumption that the traditions don't actually prevent the important stuff. If stressing over cards really makes someone unhappy or they don't spend time with their family because of it, then yeah, the cards have to go. But I genuinely like getting cards, even if there's not an elaborate message. I like being thought of, and I like covering my mantle in them. If I broke my hand and couldn't write cards one year, I'd be sad. Christmas wouldn't be RUINED FOREVER, but it would be a bit of a downer. And if Chuckro insisted that he'd do everything for Christmas (like the guy in the article) and then didn't do the cards because he decided to go the learned-helplessness route, I'd be pissed.

I suppose this doesn't apply to me directly because I don't celebrate Christmas, but my family usually makes a pretty big deal out of New Years, and I can totally do without--I don't need nicely wrapped presents (in fact, I usually don't really want presents at all), trees, decorations, fancy cooking, etc. Just getting together with some friends and family, shaving a reasonably nice dinner, and then hanging out by a fireplace sounds perfectly good enough. I'm not a huge fan of mass mailed cards--I think the effort/benefit ratio is way too high--if you want to mass mail, use email. If you randomly think of a person during the year and want to send them a card, go for it. I do really like dushai's Winter Solstice Letter tradition, but that's cause it has actual content.

I do really like dushai's Winter Solstice Letter tradition, but that's cause it has actual content.

Aw, thanks!

Okay, for the record:

My Christmas shopping is consistantly done in October. I'm perfectly capable of wrapping presents and did so for years before we were married, it's just not as pretty as when you do it. I like to bake, too, but you get so excited about doing the Christmas cookies, and besides, I get to do all of the cooking. And you take the lights off a fake tree when you take it down, or else they get horribly tangled and look like crap the next year. And you still put ornaments on it. I leave Christmas to you because you enjoy it more, but that doesn't mean it would go away if I was left to my own devices.

There are things I care about, and things I don't. Decorations are one of the ones I generally don't (you might recall what the apartment looked like before you moved in). So is making the bed, which I don't do when you're not home, but do if you're home but not able to do it, for whatever reason, because it matters to you.

Christmas cards are a specific case in that I hate hand-writing mail. I don't know why, but I always have. I hate writing thank-you notes, too, but I aknowledge their importance and am profoundly grateful that you are willing to do them, because otherwise it's like pulling my own teeth forcing myself to do them. (But they still would get done.) Christmas cards have never been worth that, though. Better I send out an update email; easier on me and probably just as appreciated.

Sorry - for the record, what I meant was that Chuckro does all the parts of Christmas he cares about quite well. If left to his own devices, there would be a competently executed Christmas, including excellent gifts, one or two tasty cookies, and a tree. There would not be wreathes and mantlepiece decorations and cards and whatnot, and probably not the 6 different kinds of cookies I make (he'd spend an evening baking, not a full day of insanity).

Mostly my point is that Chuckro is competent, unlike the guy in this article. He doesn't care about some of the details that I like, which is valid. But if for some reason I couldn't do them but still wanted them really badly, and he agreed to take them on to make me happy, they'd all go up without a hitch. Which is what makes me so pissed - clearly my guy is capable of this stuff. So I hate it when people act like all men are incapable of performing household duties.

Sorry to be all picky about this. I just didn't want to give the impression that everything would fall into ruin if I wasn't doing it specifically to please you. I do like some aspects of Christmas, just not to the same degree you do.

I'm also enojying all of the "My man is capable!" ego-stoking.

Everything wouldn't fall to ruin! Christmas wouldn't be ruined forever!

My mom tends to do elaborate Hannukah celebrations out of what I'll call "imagined Christmas envy"--it's not that she now feels left out, but that she remembers feeling left out as a kid in Georgia and now insists on making sure her more apathetic kids don't feel left out. But even then, we clearly don't go as far as you do.

Since I live in an apartment with lease restrictions on candles, I can't even put up a real menorah. Visible home decorations from the outside are right out, and since I live alone, what's the point of putting them up inside? Maybe I'll have people over and make latkes, but it's not worth the trouble by myself.

I like to think I'll care much more about this when I have kids.

Also, I expect there's some significant difference in caring about Christmas in your household for religious background reasons at least as much as gender roles. You (Catholic) presumably grew up with all these traditions; Chuckro (mixed with Jewish mom) presumably didn't. I'm just guessing, but it's an educated guess.

I grew up with some of the typical Christmas traditions: We put up a (fake) tree and a few lights, we left an orange for Santa got presents on Christmas morning, and we typically went to see my father's side of the family either on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. There were also a few we made up ourselves, like my father and sister driving around looking at all of the neighbor's lights on Christmas Eve, folloed by watching It's a Wonderful Life and A Christmas Carol. I kept the latter one, though I watch the Patrick Stewart version, and my father prefers Aleister Sim.

But we didn't do any usual amount of baking (just the usual amount), we didn't decorate that much, my parents didn't give presents to most of their friends (though my mother would make chocolate houses for a few), and I was never involved in the Christmas card adventures.

we left an orange for Santa got presents on Christmas morning

When we have kids, can we revert to the cookies tradition? 'Cause Mom will have baked all these cookies, see, and she - I mean, Santa - will want to eat those.

Oddly enough, I think one of my most important Christmas traditions involves waffles. Not really Christmas breakfast without homemade waffles.

The orange was because "Santa" preferred it as his late night snack. When we were really little, we left the tradition cookies and milk (and a carrot for the reindeer), and my father very carefully poured the milk back in the pitcher, left some convincing cookie crumbs, and took a could of bites out of the carrot. I think he was happy when he could stop doing that.

Oh, I know why your Santa liked the orange. I'm saying our kids' Santa might prefer the cookies. :)

Mm. My experience is a bit unusual.

We don't do that much that's special over Christmas; the parents have (fairly frequently of late) held orphan parties for all those grad students stuck in Princetonia. But, having a time to see the family, give each other presents, hang around, drink warm apple cider, and play Scrabble? Lovely.

I like getting Christmas cards, but don't write my own. It's not the Christmas card that matters. It's knowing that a friend cared enough to spend time writing to me. I think that socially Christmas cards are a couple-thing. As in, I only get them from my friends who have married (which reduces to a sample size of three couples).

It's more that business of having a sanctioned time to get in touch with friends, meet family, give each other presents, and be silly that's important. I don't really care if we're decorating the Christmas tree or fingerpainting :)

Hey! That ("only get them from my friends who have married") isn't true! I would know!

Although I don't know if I have it in me to do cards this year... normally I have my list made by now, and I'll be traveling for the holidays. Sigh.

oh. oops :)

I don't have kids, so it's very different. For me, it's more about being with my family for Christmas. I do gifts for my family, and that's about it. Otherwise...yeah. I love Christmas, but I don't go crazy with the decorating and making things elaborate.

Now when I have kids...that's a different story.

Yeah, more or less the same thing here. There was pageantry and tradition when my sister and I were growing up, and that kinda went away once we both were teenagers. I loved it then, but was cool with it when it kinda faded away, although I do miss the magic of Christmas when I was 8. So, when I have kids, it'll all come back in full effect - the kids playing with their new-fangled whozeewhatsits while I get toasted on egg nog with the big kids. The Circle of Life.

Oh, man. The magic of Christmas at 8. Our pseudo-cousins from Ohio would come over and we'd totally set up elaborate gizmos to trap Santa. And we'd try to stay up late to catch him, sometimes sleeping on the floor in the balcony above the living room. "You still awake?" "Yeah, I'm awake. You awake?" "Yeah, I'm awake." Silence. "You still awake?" "Yeah" "Did you hear that?" "No, it's nothing." "Your turn to keep watch." ... but eventually, eventually we always, always fell asleep.

But, yeah, a lot of that faded away as we grew older. Mostly because us kids weren't so into it anymore; we were responsible for most of the excitement. Also our pseudo-cousins stopped coming over for Christmas. :(

My dad really cares about the lights. And he's always the one writing Christmas cards; my mom never bothers. My mom would manage the tree. As for other decorations, they existed because as a little kid I was totally excited about decorating the house. :)

I think that in general it's a question of what's important to you. For some people who are more social or who value the bonds of family more, it's important to do certain activities that in their opinion strengthen those bonds: exchange Christmas cards, exchange presents, have get-togethers, do things with the kids, whatever. The 1950s stereotype is that women are social and men don't care. I believe the rest follows naturally if you accept those assumptions.

Me, I consider myself social and I want to keep in touch with friends so I take the excuse to do so during this season. I'm a post-1950s male. :) On the other hand, I really don't like exchanging gifts. I don't need much, so I always have a hard time thinking of things people can get me. And when people try to get me things they think I'd like, sometimes they're right, but more often they're wrong and and I end up with something I don't want but I can't get rid of without feeling like a heel. And I don't want to make other people feel like that, keeping a present of mine around because they don't want to make me feel bad. If I have a list of who wants what, shopping is a hassle, but I'll do it anyway because I like doing nice things for people close to me. But I'd just as soon skip it. Wanna give me a present? I'd like a long late-night deeply personal conversation, please. I'd also be thrilled to get a mix CD, ideally with personalized liner notes. A phone call or email would be perfectly acceptable and much more common.

Of course, not being Christian, I don't have the tradition factor or the "I enjoyed it growing up" factor motivating me. (And Hanukkah is really a piddling little holiday that's just an excuse for Jewish kids to get presents, so that doesn't count.)

(And Hanukkah is really a piddling little holiday that's just an excuse for Jewish kids to get presents, so that doesn't count.)

I think you mean, "And Hanukkah is really an awesome little holiday that's just an excuse for Jewish kids to eat delicious latkas that mom will only make once a year because they're horrible for you."

Which is a good excuse for me to link an article I really like on the subject.

I'll never look at hamentashen the same way again...

So when are we making latkes this year? We'll be at my parents' for most of Hanukkah.

I'm thinking for gaming on the 17th. That's only a few days before Hanukkah starts, which is good enough.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Hanukkah is piddling in terms of its religious significance. Hanukkah is AWESOME in terms of its SHEER AWESOMENESS. And latkes totally rock.

Part of this is, yes, these Christmas traditions are important to you personally. But this is part and parcel of the continued inequality in the assumptions made about home presentation. By and large, women are still made to feel like they should be the caretakers of the home--the cleaners, the decorators, et al. Conversely, men are assumed to be hopeless at these things because there are no social consequences for them if they are not.

Except when they engage in this "OH, WOE IS ME, I HAVE NO TALENT AT THIS FEMALE SHIT" sort of exhibitionism. In which case it then becomes quite clear how infantilizing the assumption that men can't/can't do well "women's" work is. It's great how that paradox makes monkeys out of all involved--women have to do all this un-productive house grooming that isn't work enough to get money/respect for (for the most part) but that stuff is too hard (unworthy) for men to do.

In you case in particular, the fact that

chuckro would, out of love for you, try to gussy up holiday-wise more is evidence that you have a real partnership. Because in such partnerships, you will, inevitably, be faced with having to put on a show to encourage a partner even when you aren't as engaged as they are. You're willing to do it because you love them and it makes them happy. That's fine. It's also quite different from the out-of-obligation holiday stuff that tend to drive everyone crazy this time of year.

Which goes back to my original point that I love my husband and he be awesome.

::nods:: This is true.

Yeah, growing up not celebrating Christmas means I don't care much about any of it, although since my family moved to Boston I have enjoyed spending Christmas Eves with my cousins who live nearby. I have also greatly enjoyed all the trappings when going to say, Michael's mom's house for Christmas, and when she comes here (as she will this year), I try to do a minimal decorating effort (got myself a fake tree and some ornaments). This year since I'm too busy with work, Michael has said he might do the decorating for me while I'm away at a conference. My boy is wonderful that way too. :)

I have so much to say on this subject, but will have to wait for when I get home today.

Every time I scroll past this post, I read the title as "Sexiest Christmas?"

Which would, I suppose, be a very different topic.

I feel like I should get more involved in the whole Christmas thing, but because I didn't grow up with it at all, the motivation is kind of weak. Last Christmas when I visited Dan's family was the first time I'd ever celebrated the holiday specifically. This will be our first Christmas alone together (Dan and me) and it will be interesting to see how that's going to work, with forming traditions. So far, I feel I've indoctrinated Dan in the ways of Chanukkah (because I actually have some strong traditions around it) but it has yet to entirely work the other way around.

I feel like I should get more involved in the whole Christmas thing

If Dan isn't pushing for it, why should you? Just beacuse the rest of the country you're not even from originally goes completely off its rocker doesn't mean you have to.

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